- 2017, September 5th at 13:28 #19024
- 2018, February 28th at 17:49 #19025DickParticipant@dickTopics: 0Replies: 1
Did anyone ever noticed that although Bill Seidl stated that Sable is a diploid dark red single Lacti it was originally registered as a F2 from Albiflora x Otto Fröbel.
I guess Sable could be a tet and interesting for breeding and it explains the fertility of Valkyrie and its (supposed) sister seedling Old Soldier. BTW pictures show that Sable (still available in Russia) has a rather poor habitus hence many offspring (Corals etc.) where Otto Fröbel is involved0
- 2018, March 1st at 05:16 #19026
My sense has always been that ‘Person’s Sable x Eclipse’ ( apparently used to produce Val and OS ) was one of those chance seedlings that was particularly difficult to get. It’s tall, and it’s plant habit is pretty terrible, and ( If I have the right plant – I got mine from Don H. ) it’s not nearly as dark red as one might expect from Bill’s description, which leads me to believe that there were not a whole lot of Sable x Eclipse seedlings that Person was able to produce. I was never able to get it to make seeds as a pod parent, both here at my place, nor at the A’s either. But like many odd-ball crosses where only one side of the cross was a tet, I assume that it’s pollen is fertile.
Having said that, I’ve not worked with it much, and I probably should. The reds of the original parents seemed to have come out more in the second generation ( i.e. Val, and OS, one of which I assume is 74H120-2) and show up as well in the third generation in seedlings from the ‘Old Soldier x Valkyrie’ seeds that Bill sent out. I’ve seen…5-6 plants bloomed from this cross ( Nate must have many ! ) and the ones I’ve seen are all characterized by red non-glossy petals. The reds I’ve seen from these OS X Val seedings are all pretty much the same – dark, but not nearly as dark as the blackish-reds that I’ve seen in pictures of ‘Sable” or “Eclipse”. Perhaps because ‘Blushing Princess” does not have much red in it ?
Using ‘Sable x Eclipse’ on something like ‘Mackinac Grand’ might be a better way to drag the really dark blackish-red out of ‘S x E’ ? Mac G freezes it’s carpals every year at my place, so this may be a cross that’s left up to others.
- 2018, August 18th at 02:43 #20440
I found this quote from Bill, when included as part of this particular conversation, to be quite interesting :
“Wouldn’t ruffling… be great when added into some peony flowers.”
I believe the seeds Bill mentions were some of the seeds I purchased from him, i.e. ‘Old Soldier x Valkyre’ of which a fair percentage grew out into red doubles. I selected the pollen from one of them ( field name “Asterisk”, because of it’s “spikey” flowers) to use in a big hybridizing push that I made at the time of it’s first flowering. Because it was something totally new to me, I crossed it hard with Salmon Dream, Lemon Chiffon, and Blushing Princess. I grew out perhaps 200+ seedlings, which all bloomed this year, with even more on the way for this coming spring. Granted that’s a lot of seedlings to select from, but even so, among each of those crosses, a few seedlings from each were notably ruffled, in a particularly noteworthy manner that I’ve not seen in any other peonies that I know of. Although only the tiniest percentage were red (which seems recessive when used on the pod parents I chose) the determining factor in each seems to be their OS X Val parentage.
I’m not sure how Bill came to include his comments about ruffling in his post above, but given my results, I found it interesting that somehow he included it in a conversation regarding these varieties.
- 2018, August 18th at 03:04 #20441
While I don’t usually post pictures of my newest seedlings ( heaven only knows what they will look like when grown out further- sometimes they look worse rather than better… ) this should give you some idea of the ruffling I mentioned above.0
- 2018, August 18th at 09:07 #20458The Peony Societywebmaster@the-peony-societyTopics: 27Replies: 9
Those are truly nice flowers. Don’t know about the bush habit and other characteristics, but would you expect the flowers to change a lot when the plants are more mature? From single to double, sure, but these are (airy) doubles and I guess the colour will not change as well. I really do like that flower form. There are several ‘cactus-dahlia’ style peonies around, but I personally don’t like those and I’m sure most people will find them unattractive because they simply look unfinished (and usually not very symmetrical). These ruffled ones that you show here will appeal to far more people. It’s nice to see some really ‘different’ peonies coming along in the future. I’ll admit to being a bit jealous (I don’t have anything like it), but I’ll have to congratulate you nonetheless 🙂
Webmaster of The Peony Society0
- 2018, August 19th at 00:31 #20462
Yes, these things are certainly different than the lactiflora “cactus” things, and I’m excited by them myself.
What I meant about varieties perhaps getting worse referred to some experiences I had this year. We had a long row of “advanced selections” which were basically divisions which were taken from seedlings which had not been divided before. Prior to division, these plants had bloomed for two seasons, and we pretty much thought we were seeing their mature flowers. But when grown on for a couple of years from divisions, they didn’t look nearly as nice as I remembered, and we got rid of most of them. The main problem seemed to be “cigar heads” – buds with poor bud covers, which expose their immature petals long before the flower is ready to open. To the point where we questioned why we had kept these things in the first place.
I’m not sure to what degree these sorts of buds are variety-specific, but I suspect that they may be. Rather than having to do with weather or growing conditions. While some of them may have gone on to make nice flowers, like open-budded things such as Red Grace and Ol’ Faithful can do, I find these sorts of buds to be ugly and discouraging.
As others may be seeing with their seedlings, it’s possible to get some awfully large flowers, and herbaceous hybrids which are quite a bit more double that what we see on the market now. The price for this may be poor bud covers though.
“It’s always something” is how it can frequently seem.
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